In case you cannot see what I am talking about, due to browser type and version issues, take a look at this screenshot.

Here are a couple of resources I just found...

Liquid Pulse CSS

CSS Scrollbars by Snow White

HTML Goodies: CSS and the Scrollbar

Posted by: John S. Rhodes on June 22, 2002 07:53 AM

 

Um, John, I hate to break it to ya', but that function already is built into Internet Explorer. Try it on *any* other web site and right-click the scroll bar. Same thing. :P

Ha ha ha ha ha!

Posted by: MadMan on June 22, 2002 10:31 AM

 

Posted by: John S. Rhodes on June 22, 2002 11:07 AM

 

I'm rather surprised that you are advocating this particular ability of css. I thought changing the basic browser tools was one fo the big no-nos of usabilty. People have so little that's consistant to rely on, and now the few tools they know how to use, back and the scroll bar are subject to alteration by javascript, css and so on.

I know this is one of the reasons Jakob critisizes flash; it disables browser behavior. Ask yourself: is taking away GUI design from folks who at least have standards to follow and giving it to everyone from php's to high school hackers going to make sites in general more or less usable? The scroll and back button were saftey back ups to let people navigate difficult sites. what happens when they are not there any more?

I know I've definately come accross scroll bars that I coudln't find at first because they were so camflauged into the site.

That said, I know it's inevitable but I'm just surprised you are advocating it.

Posted by: christina on June 22, 2002 12:12 PM

 

Christina,

I'm not advocating anything. I'm sorry it seems that way. What I meant to state is that is is interesting that CSS is powerful enough to manipulate the browser scrollbar. I didn't realize it was possible.

Any tool can be abused. Indeed, as the power of the tool grows, the easier it is to abuse. A perfect example is Flash. You can do great things with it, but you can quickly abuse users with it.

I'm neither for nor against manipulating the browser scrollbar. I just think, from a technology point of view, that it is fun and interesting. In some cases customized scrollbars will improve the usability of a web page, in other cases (most cases probably) it will decrease the usability for the reasons you mention above.

Thanks for the feedback and thanks for making me think more about what CSS manipualtion means to users.

Posted by: John S. Rhodes on June 22, 2002 12:29 PM

 

Christina,

John merely mistook IE's built-in behaviour for a CSS trick. An honest mistake. So the scroll bar was not manipulated at all. :)

Posted by: MadMan on June 22, 2002 12:52 PM

 

No fair! John gets to post pictures!

Posted by: Frank on June 22, 2002 02:46 PM

 

This makes obvious how unaware usability people is of graphic design issues. That's bad. Don Norman now know about it.

Posted by: Manuel Razzari on June 22, 2002 08:05 PM

 

Manuel,

Just because I do not know everything about CSS it does not mean that I am unaware of most graphic design issues. That is a logical fallacy; you made a hasty generalization.

Let me turn the question around. Do most graphic designers know much about usability?

Posted by: John S. Rhodes on June 22, 2002 10:15 PM

 

Can anyone suggest a good CSS book? I don't want to buy one online without seeing it and my local bookstores are stuck in the year 2000. Some of the HTML books are from 1998.

Posted by: Joey on June 22, 2002 11:38 PM

 

Joey,

Glasshaus has just sent me two books for review, one of which is Cascading Style Sheets: Separating Content from Presentation. I'll be writing a proper review in a couple of weeks, but it looks pretty good so far. It's got good coverage of cross-browser issues too.

Of course, there's plenty of reference material on the Net too.

Posted by: MadMan on June 23, 2002 12:31 AM

 

Frank,

That's not true. See?

Posted by: MadMan on June 23, 2002 07:13 AM

 

MadMan, maybe I have a better question. What should a web designer be learning? I see HTML, XHTML, DHTML, CSS, etc. For the average well-rounded web designer, what core language(s) should I know?

Posted by: Joey on June 23, 2002 11:19 AM

 

Scrollbar styles only work in IE 5.5+ and are not part of the CSS Spec:
http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/#specs

Not only do they often decrease the usability of websites, they're not a recognized standard. My recommendation is to stay away from them.

Posted by: Joshua Kaufman on June 24, 2002 11:41 AM

 

Joey, mail me on webguru AT vsnl DOT net and I'll help you out. I don't think John would want this to turn into "Web design 101".

A lot also depends upon what kind of job you're looking for. Larger companies have specialist roles like graphic designer, whereas smaller shops usually have to combine roles and have many jacks of all trades.

Posted by: MadMan on June 27, 2002 11:43 AM