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WebWord Weblog Posting Posting Date: October 28, 2002 PrisonSucks.com -- "Prisonsucks.com is a clearinghouse for useful, verifiable statistics about the crime control industry. Too often prison activists use statistics that are out of date, provided without citation or simply wrong." (Comments: Why are so few Asians in jail? Why do so few Asians hold public office? Just curious.)
Reader Comments...
Why are so few Asians in jail? Why do so few Asians hold public office? You mean in the United States, I assume. Posted by: Adam Greenfield on October 28, 2002 10:11 PM
Yes, in the United States. Sorry for the confusion. Posted by: John S. Rhodes on October 28, 2002 10:21 PM
You mean you want more Asians in jail? [raises eyebrows] Posted by: MadMan on October 29, 2002 01:00 AM
A right winger would say that becuase of the traditional family values exhibited by Asians they are less likely to commit crimes. They would also argue that there are a lot of Black people in prison because they are 'naturally' criminal.
There are less in gaol because they have a stronger family unit. And those that aren't are probably smarter than the average criminal. There are less in public office because they are less driven by ego and self gratification and more focused, again, on the family unit.
JB, are you being sarcastic? African American's have one of the strongest, most genuine, family bonds I know of so the "family unit" argument doesn't really cut it. More than likely it has to due with the Asian ideal of going unnoticed so that they may go undisturbed. Combine that with a stronger "right and wrong" awareness and that could equal fewer Asians in jail. Posted by: Lydia on October 29, 2002 07:14 PM
Whoah! And those that aren't are probably smarter than the average criminal. You guys would jump all over someone trying to trot out banal generalizations like these on usability matters. Anytime anyone around here asserts something, you expect them to be able to back it up, and yet the moment the talk turns to "race" and ethnicity, y'all let loose with some of the most unverifiable propositions I can imagine. Posted by: Adam Greenfield on October 29, 2002 08:25 PM
What does this topic have to do with usability??? As for the discussion, here is a source summarizing some relevant facts from the US 2000 census: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/census2000/134541548_webpoverty24.html Posted by: Ron Zeno on October 29, 2002 08:49 PM
The topic being prisons and Mac takes the opportunity to criticize his political opposition with: "A right winger would say that becuase of the traditional family values exhibited by Asians they are less likely to commit crimes. They would also argue that there are a lot of Black people in prison because they are 'naturally' criminal." First, I doubt you could find much evidence to support this assertion. But the bigger issue is why you would bring it up in the first place? Talk about stones and glass houses. Personally, I believe socio-economic levels have a greater correlation to crime than race... but that's just my opinion. Be careful not to "apply" it to a larger population segment. Posted by: boysen on October 30, 2002 10:05 AM
Mac referred to Black Panther and War on Drugs pages in his comment. While some people may think the Black Panther movement was justified, I don't see how militant actions will ever help a group improve its position in society. Violence begets violence. And worse, because the militant group gets so much media attention, people who have the same physical characteristics as the militants also get labeled negatively even though the majority are good, law-abiding people. It is highly doubtful that the Black Panther movement helped decrease prejudice and discrimination against Blacks in the slightest. I would say the group probably did more to hinder the cause of equal rights. War on Drugs: I don't see decreased spending on higher education and increased spending on prisons as the reason for more black people in prison. It does not take even a high school diploma to see the difference between right and wrong. Higher education can help people achieve more economically, but it doesn't make them better people morally (I bet the Enron and WorldCom CEOs had college degrees). Good morals and honor come from within and are not limited to a certain economic group or race. Most state universities have minority recruitment programs. If Blacks have an interest in pursuing higher education, the schools are more than happy to accommodate them and provide financial backing for them to obtain a good education. But the individual has to make the effort to apply and seek that backing. The individual must take responsibility for him or herself. As for the rest of the War on Drugs article, I have to agree that I think it's a waste of resources to conduct such a "war." As long as there is demand, there will be people more than willing to provide a supply, regardless of the legality. Posted by: jan on October 30, 2002 11:01 AM
boysen, I'm sorry if I was too zealous in my pre-emtive strike. It's just that I spend an awful lot of time having these kind or arguments with 'Darwinian "It's all in the genes" eugenicists', and it becomes a bit of a habit. I sincerely apoligise. I think it's useful to remember that the state with its police and prisons does not operate in a benign way. It has an agenda, and will happily use 'human nature' smokescreens to cover it's tracks. In the UK a large proportion of people who go to jail for non payment of debt are women. Is it because they are more sneaky than us men? No, of course not, it's because when the TV Licence man knocks on the door to find out why you haven't got a TV licence, it's usually a woman who answers the door and gets the whopping fine. The reasons for the make up the prison population are many, but you can be sure that one of the elements that plays it's part is political. If the UK government deport 70% of asylum seekers coming into the country, then they declare that '70% of all asylum seekers are bogus', where as the figure has a lot more to do with the current targets and political situation than the validity of someones claim to asylum. I am 'identified' as an enemy of the state and get extra attention from the police, this is not because I am more likely to commit a crime. Jan, I mentioned the Black Panthers because they are a good example of a group of people who were killed and arrested by the police because of what they represented rather than what they did. The assasinations had started with the murder of Little Bobby Hutton by the Oakland police. When the Chicago police killed Fred Hampton and Mark Clark, many people throughout the country began to suspect that there was a national police conspiracy to wipe us out, and each new attack on the brothers confirmed this suspicion. On April 2, 1969, twenty-one New York Black Panthers were arrested and charged with conspiring to bomb several New York police stations and department stores. Bail was set at $100,000 each, and the defendants had to spend ten months in jail awaiting trial. On May 13 1971, after a trial that lasted eight months , the thirteen defendants who stood trial were unanimously acquitted of all twelve counts of the indictment. For years the Establishment media presented a sensational picture of us, emphasizing violence and weapons. Colossal events like Sacremento, the Ramparts confrontation with the police, the shoot-out of April 6 1968, were distorted and their significance never understood or analyzed. Furthermore, our ten-point program was ignored and our plans for survival overlooked. The Black Panthers were identified with the gun.
Actually Lydia I wasn't. I should have stated this is my observation after living in Asia for two years. I genuinely see the family unit having a massive influence on the children and this flows through to adulthood. One of the key problems that Asia is facing is that as a country becomes more Westernized it loses these traditional values that flow through into things like aged care and lower crime etc.
OK, JB, that explains a lot. This was a link for statistics in America, and Asians in America have very different dynamics than in Asia. Adam, it is difficult to "back up" the types of observations people are making here. JB gives his credentials as living in Asia for two years, I could mention being married to an Asian man for almost 10 years as the source of my interpretation, but none of us are experts, which is why every post is full of language like "could equal" and "may be" and "indicates". Posted by: Lydia on October 30, 2002 07:39 PM
Just look at the US Census stats: Guess what group has the highest income? Lowest? Average levels of education? There's also some very telling relationships between race and family size/organization and fertility/age.
Lydia, please. They can't be "backed up" because they're in the realm of folk shibboleths, and about as meaningful. Asians "probably smarter than the average criminal"? Again: please. Posted by: Adam Greenfield on October 30, 2002 11:51 PM
Er... Adam I was trying to be tactful when explaining that you can't back up personal value judgements, so you have to read between the lines at the words people are using to indicate that it is just speculation. I'm treating your comments with respect; I don't think I need a snide response in return. Posted by: Lydia on October 31, 2002 01:07 AM
I found your post condescending and replied in kind. If I read that in, then I apologize. And I'm *still* not sure what a post this far offtopic is doing here. Posted by: Adam Greenfield on October 31, 2002 05:12 AM
> Ron Said: What does this topic have to do with usability??? > Adam Said: And I'm *still* not sure what a post this far offtopic is doing here. Even though "prison populations" has nothing to do with usability, the form of the discussion does. People are exploring the issuse by listening to other peoples views and responding, rather than just accepting the 'facts' about percentages of ethnic groups in prison without thinking about the why and wherefore. An example: When Nielsen states: more than half of all users demonstrate 'search-dominant' tendencies, then we can either accept this at face value, or we can try to understand more about the issues it raises. Even if you disagree with the UIE view of search, at least they are coming up with their own explanations for user bahaviour, and not just accepting the 'official explanation'. "Watch what users do, not what they say they do" What is the explanation for the large proportion of women working in usability (compared with the programming field) ? Yes the subject of prisons has nothing to do with usability, but the debate we have can help us hone our skills when we come to look at usability related issues. Posted by: Mac on October 31, 2002 07:01 AM
Yes the subject of prisons has nothing to do with usability, but the debate we have can help us hone our skills when we come to look at usability related issues. OK. Instead, why not follow the lead of my weblog by demonstrating and promoting critical thinking directly to usability-related information and providing recommended sources of information on influence and critical thinking? While I've researched and posted top sources on tactics used to influence others, such as Propaganda Critic, I'd like some help sifting through the many resources on critical thinking, such as Mission Critical (which I find to be a bit too academic). If you've found such sources that you recommend, please post them or email me. Posted by: Ron Zeno on October 31, 2002 09:42 AM
Adam I said that as a way of acknowledging that all races commit crimes and admittedly Asians in the US maybe committing lower number of crimes per capita, but at the same time - maybe they are smarter? Who knows...I should not have been so flippant. Apologies!
Wow, I'm surprised at the assumption embedded there. Let's unpack the whole complex, however flippantly it was meant - should make Mac happy as a demonstration of critical thinking. "Fewer Asians are in jail in the United States per capita as opposed to members of other racial groups, possibly because they're smarter." There are quite a few problematic assertions embedded there: Stuff and nonsense, as I'm sure we'd all agree. There are holes in this argument you can fly a C-5 through, starting with the fact that white-collar crime causes at least as much (if not far more) economic damage to society annually as violent crime, and that its perpetrators are rarely sanctioned by imprisonment. Posted by: Adam Greenfield on October 31, 2002 08:48 PM
1. Was I the only person who had to look up shibboleth? What good are my 4 college degrees? *sigh* 2. Mac writes: "Yes the subject of prisons has nothing to do with usability, but the debate we have can help us hone our skills when we come to look at usability related issues." Exactly right. Also, my intuition (yikes!) tells me that people like to banter about the "side" topics that I post here. That's just part of what makes WebWord a different kind of usabilty web site. 3. I am still quite honestly interested in understanding why so few Asians in the U.S. are in jail. They are certainly a minority, but they are relatively silent, in many ways (i.e., entertainment, politics, etc.). 4. Ron writes: "OK. Instead, why not follow the lead of my weblog by demonstrating and promoting critical thinking directly to usability-related information and providing recommended sources of information on influence and critical thinking." Ron, that is what your weblog is for. ;-) There are times when we should focus on usability, and there are times when we shoud not. That's my opinion, of course, but I do control WebWord and that is how I feel. Fortunately, other folks like going offtopic now and then. I like the spice and I guess they do too. Does it hurt traffic or help it? I dunno; not sure that I care. Sorry, I am rambling here. My point is that Ron Zeno is more strict than John S. Rhodes about the rules. 5. I like the "prisonsucks.com" URL. It amuses me for some reason. Posted by: John S. Rhodes on October 31, 2002 10:34 PM
John S. Rhodes wrote: "1. Was I the only person who had to look up shibboleth?" Rather than look it up, I perceived the author's choice to use a word so obviously uncommon as his attempt to put himself (and his position on the debate) on a higher plane than the people who disagree with his position. That choice updated my opinion of the poster. Mac wrote: "Yes the subject of prisons has nothing to do with usability, but the debate we have can help us hone our skills when we come to look at usability related issues." While I disagree with Mac on several issues, this is not one of them. 8^) Posted by: boysen on November 1, 2002 09:58 AM
Here's a little history on why "shibboleth" has the meaning it does today. Posted by: Ryan on November 1, 2002 10:39 AM
shibboleth It's odd, but I knew what the word menat because of its 'tone', without knowing the dictionary meaning. Posted by: Mac on November 2, 2002 01:09 PM
Yow! boysen, it certainly wasn't my intention to set myself above anybody else, by word choice or any other means, and I'm sorry if anything I wrote gave you that impression. That's just the way I talk (and write), honest. It's something that's gotten me in trouble throughout my life, especially in the Army ("Get yer ass over here, college boy!"), but there's not much I can do about it without a considerable effort at continuous redaction. Heh, "redaction." I assume I'm talking with fairly intelligent people on Webword, anyway; even if I had thought about it, I probably would have made the same choice, considering the audience. So maybe this brings up a good question: which is more "usable," a longer sentence consisting of simpler words, or one word - if it's the *right* word - that makes people feel like they need to go look it up? I'd guess that most experienced usability folks would answer, "Well, it depends." Consider context and target audience, for example. But as we can see in the present instance, you can't please everybody. This speaks to one of the only sound critiques of the discourse of usability I've ever personally stumbled across, which is that in our quest to ensure that everyone is able to engage content or functionality "intuitively," we deprive them of the right to educate themselves, and maybe learn a thing or two. BTW, if memory serves, "shibboleth" was used on an episode of the American TV show "The West Wing." That probably contributed to my sense that if a general audience could tolerate it, well, surely so could y'alls. Again, apologies if it somehow sounded snide. Posted by: Adam Greenfield on November 2, 2002 06:00 PM
Why do so few Asians hold public office? The first step to electing more Asians to office is probably to get more Asians to vote. In 1998 voter registration rates were: Whites -- 68 percent & not changing Now the question becomes why do so few Asians that are eligible to register to vote choose to do so? Is it a language barrier?
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