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WebWord Weblog Posting Posting Date: November 21, 2002 Usability of Geography (bbc.co.uk) -- "Many Americans know all about London and England but think the United Kingdom is in the Middle East."
Reader Comments...
I'm from Canada. So it must be between Main and California... Posted by: Richard Lehoux on November 21, 2002 08:21 AM
Stupid Canadians -- They never bother learning anything about their neighbor to the south. It's MainE, not Main. At least we Americans know that everyone in Canada lives in an igloo, keeps a pet moose, and is required by law to become a Mountee for a period of at least two years. Disclaimer: Please note the sarcasm deeply hidden within this post. Posted by: Opining American on November 21, 2002 08:54 AM
Canada? I thought it was Knock an nada. :> That's how La Cananda is pronounced here in Tucson, Arizona. Posted by: Morris Cox on November 21, 2002 09:19 AM
As with many things, the perceived reality tells us a lot about how people see the world. We get many of our 'views' of other countries from tv, books and magazines. I know that Americans are dreadfully disappointed when they go on their day-trip from London to see Stonehenge, and can't believe that it's just a small pile of old rocks. The 'idea' of Stonehenge is so much better than the reality. I was born in the city of Bath, which many Amercians have heard of because of Jane Austen and the Roman Baths. I live in a city a few miles away called Bristol which played a big role in the slave trade and was the starting point for the John Cabot voyage to Newfoundland. Millions visit Bath, whilst very few visit Bristol, which is a much more interesting place. Oh, and did you know that Archibald Leach (Cary Grant) was born in Bristol ! Posted by: Mac on November 21, 2002 10:17 AM
For more on the geographical ignorance of Americans, Canadians, the British, Germans and just about everybody else, have a look at the National Geographic survey. And, before you start feeling smug, you can test yourself as well.
I got 19 out of 20 (he says modestly). Posted by: Alan Fisher on November 21, 2002 11:08 AM
I got 2 wrong. I am the weakest link. Goodbye. As a child, I was interviewed on a local radio station because of my role in a play "The Childrens Crusade". Part of the plot involves the kiddies crossing the sea to get to the Holy Land. The interviewer asked me which sea it was. I didn't know the answer and was given extra homework by my Geography Teacher the next day. Posted by: Mac on November 21, 2002 11:18 AM
I have to admit that 2 or 3 of the ones I got right were (un)educated guesses. But the one I got wrong was the population of the USA, which I overestimated by a factor of 2. What I found interesting was the relative scores it shows for each question by country. This, to me, disproved the "Americans don't know about anything outside America" line, as they did just as well (or as badly) as most other nationalities. One of my colleagues (who is English) thought that China was Japan, which I found entirely unbelievable. The Swedes seemed to consistently do better than everybody else - why? Posted by: Alan Fisher on November 21, 2002 11:35 AM
Hmm, when I moved to Boston, everyone thought I was Irish. Seems to me that most people in the 'States claim to know about Scotland (usually as some ancestor hails from the old country, are familiar with our drink or have seen Braveheart), but are surprised that we actually still exist as a nation, albeit within a nation (that isn't England). Though that can even be lost on visitors -- "Gee, Scotland is just the prettiest part of England!". Fear not, we'll go our own way soon enough and paint ourselves a different colour on the map. Which should help at least 30% of American youths. Posted by: Chris on November 21, 2002 12:55 PM
Well, Alan, I hate to say this about America but my experience is that the average American really doesn't know much about what is going on outside our borders. Probably the people going to the National Geographic site have a prediliction for outside interest. Most of what I know about Britain I learned from Douglas Adams books and Monty Python. I'm only slightly kidding. I've never been there or spent any time there, and economics seem to indicate that this status will not change anytime in the near future, much as I would like it to be otherwise. I'm kind of embarrassed to admit that I'm fascinated by English culture. It sounds almost condescending and not very PC. Is anyone fascinated by Americans? I doubt this, and I never hear anyone say this, at least not in a "positive" sense. So, if asked I usually don't own up to it. I also must admit I am swayed by the likes of Cary Grant and Alan Rickman. But, I suppose this is a very girl-type thing to say and not relevant to the argument. Posted by: Lydia on November 21, 2002 12:59 PM
Lydia wrote: That's hilarious! And I'd bet all too true. It's no secret that American schools are found to be lacking. Geography is just one of those facets. Since the early 60s, the emphasis has moved from "performance" to "emotions." What's important today seems to be making sure that everyone "feels" good about themselves. No one is singled out. No one is held back, regardless of their scores. Everything is accepted, except pointing out that "it's not working." I wouldn't be surprised to see scores (scoring, grading, ranking) completely removed from assesments at some point. Political Correctness is now the Golden Rule. If you go back and look at charts that describe things like literacy, violent crime, abortion, divorce, etc. they all trend up (or badly) in the early 60s. As it happens, it was 1962 case of Engel v. Vital that also took God out of schools. To cite a (somewhat) famous English group: "...left to their own devices..." (Pet Shop Boys, West End Girls)
Lydia, wait until you get to see "The League Of Gentlemen". Then you'll learn a bit more about England. When I was a youngster (here he goes again) I though that Americans were very stupid. Why? Becuase I had seen the film Grease and couldn't understand whay all the school kids seemed to be about 20 years old. I deduced that they must all have been kept back for 5 years because of their ignorance. Posted by: Mac on November 21, 2002 03:05 PM
Oh, Mac, I can't wait! I love Alan Moore and was completely psyched when I heard it was being made into a movie. I've always loved the premise. I've heard that one of my favorite books, the Pratchett/Gaiman "Good Omens", is going to made into a film, too - I'm so glad someone has hit on the fact that these types of movies make money! RE: Grease. That's a funny one - I can usually suspend my disbelief and get into a movie, but that was stretching it a bit too far. (ha ha) Posted by: Lydia on November 21, 2002 03:55 PM
Sorry Lydia, I'm talking about a different League Of Gentlemen. We'll have no trouble here. This is a local shop for local people. Posted by: Mac on November 21, 2002 04:02 PM
"Well, Alan, I hate to say this about America but my experience is that the average American really doesn't know much about what is going on outside our borders." ...most Americans don't know what is going on inside their own borders! Posted by: John S. Rhodes on November 21, 2002 04:27 PM
Ah, yes. Well, then. I had hoped you merely forgot the "Extraordinary" part, as some do. I should have known better! I've tried the TV show, actually, and it is very intense. I want to laugh, but I'm too busy cringing. I much prefer the build-up intensity of something like Fawlty Towers, where I can kind of ramp up to the bits where I'm cringing and moaning with empathic pain. Hee hee. John, too funny! Posted by: Lydia on November 21, 2002 06:05 PM
Am I fascinated by Americans? Oh yeah, I'm fascinated by the litigious nature of its society. People will sue at the drop of a hat. :) I am also amused that when Americans use the term "Asians", they don't include us Indians in it. I'm quite familiar with British culture because my father deals with a British company and I've grown up having British guests at home every other day. BTW, we had an entire year of school geography devoted to North America (Grade 8). How much of US geography lessons are devoted to other continents/countries? (I really want to know, not being rhetorical.) Posted by: MadMan on November 21, 2002 11:05 PM
Lydia - the National Geographic survey wasn't self-selecting. The organisation who carried it out went out and polled a "representative sample of young adults", so there shouldn't be any bias towards people who would be interested in the subject anyway. In the UK, we often hear stories of American's ignorance about the world outside their borders, and some of the results showed this to be true. But then, for the same questions, the results from European countries were often no better (or even worse). I'd still like to know why the best results seemed to come consistently from Sweden. As for your interest in British culture and whether it's reciprocated - well, if you ever came to the UK you'd realise that a large part of our population are obsessed with American culture, whether high or low-brow. So what has all this got to do with usability? I'd suggest that it's important that web designers and owners are aware of these kinds of differences, so that they can make sure their sites are truly usable internationally. As an example - if the web master of the AimeeMann.com site is reading this, can you put the European tour dates in European date formats please? Posted by: Alan Fisher on November 22, 2002 03:55 AM
On a totally trivial point, it rankles having to use the American spelling of colour in html. For dates, and our company being fairly evenly split between Europe and North America, I use largest unit of time descending to smallest unit, depicted numerically (eg 2002-11-22), that seems to be universally (un)acceptable (whenever I've used month names in place of numbers, there has been a complaint along the lines of "This isn't how we're used to seing dates"). On the british comedy front, Steve Coogan's groteque "I'm Alan Partridge" is a still a giant among pygmies. As Alan himself would say, "Jurassic Park!". Posted by: James Tuddenham on November 22, 2002 05:08 AM
But none of these can hold a candle to Peter Kay's "Phoenix Nights". However, I can't imagine any Americans even understanding it, never mind finding it funny. Think - what would Thora Hird do? Posted by: Alan Fisher on November 22, 2002 08:08 AM
I suggest that the best way us to reduce bad design and misunderstandings brought about by cultural and geographic differences is to make sure we talk to as many people from as many places as possible. That's why "I Lurve WebWord !" Posted by: Mac on November 22, 2002 08:43 AM
Would we think of other WebWorders differently if we knew where they lived? I have uploaded a series of images showing where I live in the world. Some of these photos were only taken ten minutes ago! Now that's what I call fresh content. (There should be enough contextual information for anyone to understand where it is.) Posted by: Mac on November 22, 2002 01:49 PM
MadMan - much US school time is devoted to geography in other parts of the world. Many funny polls are then taken to find out how little people actually know. Can we say "cram for the test"? In all seriousness, we had approximately 20% of each history/geography class devoted to geography outside the US. History was required up through our sophomore year (up until two years before graduation). We forget things that aren't reinforced by repeated exposure. Also, Americans still think of Native Americans as Indians, so hopes that they will identify with "Asians" in regards to geography are probably remote. I live in Seattle, Washington, which is a city in a state on the west coast of the United States. Seattle itself is a charming little town, well known for being located near the Microsoft headquarters and for sinking quickly when the bubble burst. Oh, and for that grunge thing and Nirvana. It's a fairly rural town, although natives will tell you it is a huge metropolis (in the same breath that they will tell you that "outsiders aren't welcome") and... um. Well, that's about it, really, although someone mentioned to me once that "we have a symphony," as if that should explain everything. Is it just familiarity that makes us think that our culture isn't that interesting? For example, I am mystified by Alan's statement that some people are fascinated by American culture. I mean, I like this country and I'm a proud American, etc. but I'm trying to think of things that might be interesting enough to get obsessed over. I also dislike blonde hair and wish I could have naturally black hair, but blondes probably all say that. Posted by: Lydia on November 25, 2002 03:19 PM
Lydia - for 'culture' read Friends, Frasier, Sopranos, ER, Steven Spielberg, Britney, Whitney, Eminem, Stephen King etc. etc. I'm guessing that you'd be surprised how much a part of our everyday lives these things are, probably to a far greater extent than European culture is in the US. The average British person probably feels that they know the USA really well because of their life-long exposure to American culture. I say "feels", because they're probably wrong. Posted by: Alan Fisher on November 26, 2002 04:04 AM
When we visited the US (Cal. Utah. Nevada.) two years ago it was almost like coming home. We (in the UK) are drip-fed American 'culture' (see above) through our TV's 24 hours a day. When we arrived in SF, it seemed very familiar but much bigger (we only had a little TV). After two weeks I felt like we had lived through a road movie. Very unreal. I think that many non UK people (especially Japanese and American) have a literary (rather than tv/cinema) view of the UK. Think Shakespeare, Chaucer, Jane Austen, Sherlock Holmes etc.) and this prejudices their view of the UK in the same way Starsky and Hutch does for the US. Posted by: Mac on November 26, 2002 05:18 AM
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